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00:08 Jackie Strohm: Welcome to PA Centered, a podcast designed to help listeners be a part of the solution to end sexual harassment, abuse and assault. Each episode, we will take on a topic or current event to help spark conversation and break down barriers to building communities free from sexual violence.

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00:32 JS: Hi everyone, I'm Jackie Strohm, the Prevention and Resource Coordinator at the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape. I'll be your host today as we're joined by Cathleen Palm, founder of the Center for Children's Justice, to talk about how we can keep kids safe during the COVID-19 pandemic and beyond.

00:49 JS: Cathy founded the Center for Children's Justice in 2003. This organization works to promote community responsibility so every Pennsylvania Child is protected from abuse, including sexual abuse. Cathy has spent 25 years working to improve systems that intersect with the lives of children and families and has been so valuable to PCAR over the years. Welcome Cathy.

01:13 Cathleen Palm: So good to talk with you, Jackie.

01:16 JS: As we all know, the COVID-19 pandemic has been going on for months now and it has brought a lot of challenges and COVID has really changed how children are being cared for. Can you share a few of the key differences you know about and the effect these changes can have on the care children receive? 

01:39 CP: Sure. First, it's interesting, as you know, I think if we had started this podcast in March, I don't think any of us would have thought we'd still be having this conversation in September. It's been a longer journey than I think most of us anticipated. Interestingly enough, as we head into winter and I think we're all very anxious about dark winter days and rising case numbers and frankly rising deaths and that invites its own anxiety. There has been a shift since March in terms of understanding the importance of school and, you won't see my air quotes but normalized activities for kids to be connected to school, to be connected to care providers.

02:27 CP: As worrisome as the next couple weeks and months are going to be, I fear, I do feel like there's a little bit of silver lining in the sense that more kids are back in a more in-person learning environment for now than earlier in March. That said, we are far from anything ideal.

02:47 CP: You still have so many children who are both trying to learn and who were struggling to learn in a formalized setting and are now really struggling to learn in a remote setting where there's not the right technology, they're hands-on learners, they are people who really want immediate feedback and then there they are trying to do that, this new job of theirs, their new learning style alongside parents or caregivers who are just... As I said, we maybe kinda kept it together in March but it's December and we're all saying "Wait a second... "

03:25 CP: Now we're still struggling to do our jobs. It feels confusing. Every time we turn around, it's like are our kids remote learners? Are they in-person learners? So I do think that there's no question that while children are not, thankfully, being fundamentally affected by the virus itself, I do think children are probably being affected the most in terms of collateral damage or related things and just simple things like here we are in December and kids' anxiety about Santa.

04:02 S3: Like, "Can I see Santa? How do I see Santa?" We often talked about giving kids boundaries like if they don't wanna sit on Santa's lap. So usually, the conversation is about how you respect kids and protect them and listen to them if they don't want that connector tissue in such a personal way with Santa but for a lot of kids, they want that and now it's like there's that screen between them. So it's just a changed world for children.

04:27 CP: I do wanna say one thing before we go further is I join with many parents and many advocates for children with being very concerned about the state of where things are for children but I also feel like we haven't spent enough time talking about; that there could be some positives that have come out of this. I think I see in my own kids that I feel like they've become a bit more resilient in terms of handling problems and negotiating things not going their way than maybe a year ago.

05:00 CP: Maybe we can't definitively measure that at this point or know that but hopefully one of the things that is a side effect for kids is that they're learning a bit of coping skills and how life can throw you a curve ball at any moment and so yeah, it is a tough and different time for kids.

05:20 JS: Absolutely and I know when you and I have talked before, you've seen unfortunately higher fatality and near fatality data happening over the last couple of months. Could you talk a little bit about that and if you have any tips or suggestions about safety measures that could be taken to make sure that we're trying to keep kids as safe as possible? 

05:48 CP: Well, I think when we've talked, especially those in connective tissue with PCAR, we've often thought about the sexual exploitation and sexual abuse of children but we've also seen just a whole lot of issues that have been born out of supervisory and I wanna be cautious in saying "neglect" because again, parents are trying to do things and maybe their full attention isn't on their child at every moment or maybe the 13-year-old is caring for the 3-year-old while mom's got a Zoom call that she can't be interrupted on and the 13-year-old is just not really ready or prepared to do that.

06:24 CP: So we saw more situations where... Ingestions. We saw a significant change in ingestions in terms of... And even that was different. In some communities, the ingestions were ingestions of illegal substances that were found in the home versus legal substances that were just not out of reach. So even as you're acknowledging those numbers, we'd sit at a table and try to... Or sit at a Zoom table, I should say and think about prevention strategies and they couldn't be universal. They weren't necessarily the same.

07:00 CP: Because when you were talking about an ingestion which might have involved Suboxone, for instance, which is a medication used to help folks navigate recovery from an opiate-use disorder, Suboxone pills are not packaged in the most child-friendly safe packaging. It's just how they're made. They're very dissolvable. So even the most intentional caregiver could drop one or two on the floor and any parent knows this, a kid picks something up, they got it in their mouth and in the case of Suboxone, before you can get it out, it's already started dissolve inside their mouth.

07:37 CP: So in that case, you might be thinking about lock boxes and keeping medicines out of place but in another part of the state where the ingestion's related to illegal substances, you're talking about lock boxes may not be the right strategies and through it all, I think a lot of what we've seen, whether it's children who fell out of windows, children who fell into fire pits, children who drowned, these things around ingestions, a lot of it has that thread of substance use.

08:10 CP: Folks... I think we're seeing a higher level of use of substances, which clearly... Infants dying from unsafe sleep. So there's just these things that have always been there and impacting children but are feeling magnified and are magnified because of the pandemic.

08:30 CP: Babies; if you had gave birth to a baby in 2020, more power to you because we all know that having a newborn is so stressful. We know the Johnson & Johnson commercials are like "Oh, it's so cute. Ain't they cute? And it's so beautiful and it's so peaceful." It's not. Having a baby is stressful. You don't sleep, they need you at every moment. You feel inadequate, you feel insecure. Yes, you're happy but it's also so mired in all these self-doubts and at least in ordinary years you can hand off to grandma or you can talk to the neighbor or you can have some other support system.

09:13 CP: So many parents, so many caregivers are 24/7 caring for kids of all ages but particularly for infants. So I think that's one of the things that is been concerning to us.

09:26 CP: Guns. We have seen record sales of guns. We have also seen way too many incidences where kids had access to guns and I always tell this story: I'm a mom, in addition to being an advocate, I'm a mom and when my oldest daughter was little and we were considering her first playdate, I said to my husband "Well, I just have been a little uncomfortable 'cause I'm not sure how to approach the family about whether or not they have guns that are safely stored." My husband was all freaked out. Like "You are not even gonna infringe on their rights. How dare you think about asking them that?"

10:04 CP: So then I sent him some articles about kids who have died from gun violence, had access and he was like... He even started asking the questions and I think that's one of the things that's really an important thing for parents is to empower them to listen to each other and ask difficult questions and not think it's just about your parenting style, your parental rights. It really is about our shared responsibility to protect kids. So yeah, we always have interesting and tough conversations as parents and more so now, because of the pandemic.

10:39 JS: That is a perfect segue to my next question. We know and like you said, parents are looking for help supervising their children right now and it looks very different right now because of the pandemic and they're trying to navigate all these new challenges from COVID, like working from home or lack of daycare or school options and so, you already talked about gun safety but are there other qualities that someone should look for in a caretaker for their children? 

11:09 CP: That's such an important thing. So often, particularly... Even before the pandemic, if you're on any Facebook page that involves a lot of parents, you will see these pop-ups of somebody saying "Oh my gosh! I'm in need of child care." And someone else saying "Oh! I'm good with kids. I stay from home." or "My teen is good with children." And I think if you're a parent who doesn't have the luxury of navigating your workplace to say "Hey, be flexible. Work with me, I have child care issues." You don't always have the luxury of being that picky and again, picky might not be the right word.

11:49 CP: So I think that's fundamentally why when you're picking a caregiver, when you're looking for a childcare setting, it's just thinking about things like background checks and things like that but even background checks are a moment in time look. I often say to people "Make sure you go into the home. Look around. Are there smoke detectors? Is there a pool?" Even a body of water, remember little people drown very quickly in a small amount of water.

12:16 CP: We all know the hazards of a pool and whether or not there should be a fence around it but what about a wheelbarrow full of water and things like that. Electrical issues, access to guns, access to medications. This is the most treasured possession you have and so when you walk into a caregiver or you're thinking about a caregiver, we jokingly used to have this campaign that we'd say "If you wouldn't leave your purse with this person, you probably shouldn't leave your child."

12:47 CP: And it just helped people remember that sometimes we're so focused on "I've gotta get to work." and I so painfully understand for parents how tough that balancing act is but it's also really important to kinda just stop and have a real comfort level with the situation and the environment you're living in. Reinforce safe sleep. If it's an infant, reinforce safe sleep things. Sleep on the back alone, not on a sofa.

13:15 CP: Are there other children in the home? And what are the other children? How many? What are their age groups? Those are all things and even as I rattle off that list, I hear myself going "Oh god! You've just made every parent nervous." Because this is the hard thing about it is, in the work we do, you want people to be on guard and on the lookout to protect children, to keep kids safe.

13:40 CP: But sometimes we also have to be careful, like we balance it without them feeling either inadequate or totally overwhelmed by "Oh am I having this... " Like imagine the parent who has a child in care right now and they're hearing me say about smoke detectors and they're like "I don't know that I've ever looked, are there smoke detectors in that home?"

14:01 CP: So the important thing about parenting, the important thing about being a caregiver is to be on guard, to be attentive to things but also to breathe, to just not be so overwhelmed or so anxious or so believing you're getting it all wrong 'cause you're getting so much of it right and just hold on to the fact that you're getting so much of it right.

14:24 JS: It sounds like it's never too late to start asking those questions about smoke detectors or how weapons are stored or electrical or pool things, all the things you mentioned, there's always time to ask those questions, right? 

14:39 CP: Right and I think if you're a part of a parent group, encourage that. Encourage each other to ask questions and be up front and say... Similar to my husband, like I said to him "I could care less if people own guns, the same way I could care less if somebody owns a snake, like if their pet of a choice is a snake. I just wanna kinda make sure that whatever it is, it's not gonna compromise the safety of my child." And so we really have to get beyond like... And these are tough conversations but get beyond this being something that's about me questioning your choices or me having some statement, particularly now, my goodness.

15:20 CP: We are in such a period of time where everything's about politics, everything is about being divisive and not too civil. So you just have to figure out how you frame it and you should never, ever, ever feel bad, sorry or apologetic about, "I'm sorry. This is it. This is my baby. This is my child. They are unique. I'm never gonna replace them and so I'm just gonna ask the questions I wanna ask and I hope you'll really indulge me in them."

15:55 JS: That's great advice. I know we talked about this a little bit earlier, about how we've been spending so much time online, including recording this podcast online so we've been finding new ways to connect virtually with one another and I know that teachers and parents and other educators are really trying to figure out the best way to keep kids safe online and also be that supportive person in case a child needs to talk to them about something.

16:29 JS: I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about things that, like what teachers or other parents should be watching out for as they interact virtually with children and what they might do if they see any of these red flags.

16:47 CP: Well first I think it's important for... Just like in the regular classroom, if I were teaching a group of children, I would expect from day one, I set the stage of "If there's something you want to talk about I'm always available to you." Maybe it's as simple as teaching... Especially if it's a younger child but also a tween or teen, just teaching them about the "Here's how you can send me a chat privately so if something happens or you're scared or whatever, how do you outreach to me? I am still somebody who is so deeply invested in you and here's how you reach a directly."

17:29 CP: On the flip side I think parents also have to really... We went so far in our society to really draw the lines between what's appropriate. So teachers really shouldn't be emailing kids directly, they really shouldn't be having private conversations with them via electronic means and now here we are, that is it and again, I speak to my own experience as a parent, I had one of my kids who their teacher was struggling with their own technology and so he was struggling to navigate the platform that the school used and meant nothing by it but his solution was to have the kids be privately emailing him and vice versa and things like that and I just was like... I turned to my daughter. I'm like "Something about this seems a little off."

18:22 CP: Again there was nothing he was up to but I think for us parents, for the younger kids, we have to figure out how it's not too much and they're not being exposed to things we don't know about and the same with the older kids. If you're a teacher, I think the other thing is just to please remember yourself as well, how stressful these times are. So we've had a number of calls at the center where people are like "Oh my gosh! There's this mom in the background and she's so harsh." and we all know words matter and words can hurt but we also are in a time of pandemic where people have...

19:00 CP: Just imagine a backpack on your back and we just keep putting rock in it after rock in it. You maybe don't have a job or you have less hours than you used to, you're potentially losing your home, you're at home 24/7 with your children, maybe the tension that used to be minor between you and your partner is now much more than that. So there are sure to be moments of harshness, there are sure to be moments of impatience and things like that so if you encounter that, before jumping to conclusions, follow up with the parent and be like "So how are things going? Is there anything you need?"

19:38 CP: I do think schools have done a fantastic job, as much as they can. I think people are really trying to do well. I've seen teachers and administrators going beyond the call of duty on things and the other thing that is emerging as a real significant problem is that we, for the longest period of time, we were seeing a reduction in the calls to the Child Abuse Hotline or the County Children Youth agencies and we still are not where we used to be but where we are seeing an uptick is in truancy.

20:12 CP: There's your growing concern about the calls that are coming in about truancy and so even that, we're asking people to think about from a balanced perspective. Is that an indicator that there's potentially really a safety or a health or well-being issue for the child? Or is that again, a reflection of a family that's overwhelmed, that's like... Or what if it's grandma who's the caregiver and is like "I don't know how to do attendance. I don't know what to do with a third grader."

20:43 CP: But just a reminder to every mandated reporter, every teacher, is that nobody has stopped working. It all looks different but ChildLine is still operating at 1-800-932-0313. They're still taking calls. They're still helping people sort through things. If something you encounter is different than you've encountered before, it's on its face doesn't feel like child abuse but feels off to you, call the Children Youth Agency, call the 1-800 number and talk it through. Be like, "Here's what I'm encountering."

21:16 CP: And then also think about what else is a pathway. Is there some link you can share to your parents by email that's like "Oh, here's a stress reductor" or like "Have you thought about doing this instead of sitting down and playing a game in the afternoon?" like "Let's learn math by playing Monopoly." I don't know. So I think it's a tough time for parents but it's also a tough time for mandated reporters because they're not sure exactly how to navigate this all as well either.

21:50 JS: It sounds like you're sharing that if someone is questioning or if they're just not sure, something feels off, the best thing to do is still make that phone call and check in? 

22:01 CP: Well, remember, we always think of the hotline and we always think of County Children Youth agencies as; "We're reporting, it has to be a report." But there are folks. They're never gonna tell you yes or no to make the report but there is no reason that you can't pick up the phone and the other thing is, several years ago we changed the policy to say there's no... You can no longer have the chain-of-command reporting.

22:24 CP: So if you're the line teacher, you used to maybe tell the school counselor or you used to tell the principal and you'd let them be the official make the mandated report. That doesn't happen anymore. If you're the school teacher, if you are the person who suspects the child abuse, you have to make the report but in changing that statute, we never said "Don't still be collaborative."

22:49 CP: So if I'm a teacher and I'm like "Here's what it is, here's what I'm experiencing, here's what I'm seeing." Talk to your fellow teachers, talk to the guidance counselor. It's possible that the guidance counselor knows something you don't know. Maybe the parent has reached out to say, "I wanted to let you know that I'm concerned about my child because the grandmother is in the hospital and he's really anxious about it." But for some reason, the parent hasn't told the teacher that.

23:19 CP: Or things like that. So and other kids, the other thing is kids talking to kids. I had another experience as a parent where my little guy, who's in elementary school, came home and said "I found a little boy on the bus that was crying. He got on the school bus, right after the bus stopped but he was really crying." And my son, because of the work I do, was like, "You better call somebody, Mom. Like something's... " and I was like, "Well, is this the first time you've seen him crying? Did he seem anything... " And then thankfully, different than my son, I had some context to know that his grandmother is in a nursing home. He hasn't seen her in months, so it was kind of like... And also to think through, like "What are the other ways that I can know a little bit more about whether that child's in a decent spot or whether or not there is reason to be concerned about the child crying?"

24:13 CP: Look, we're all under pressure. We are all under pressure. We are all living in a powder keg, we are all expressing emotions and as I said to you before we started this podcast, when it was March and April, it was tough 'cause it was new, we didn't know what to expect, we were insecure but it was... There were flowers popping out of the ground, we had warm weather, we could send our kids outdoor, we could go outside and breathe the fresh air in, we could take a walk.

24:45 CP: I think this is probably the period we're about to enter into, both from a public health perspective, is probably the most challenging but I also worry... I think this is the most anxious I am about the well-being of children and families. Because even if you had the most intense support system, even if you had the best coping skills in March, likely they're a little diminished by December and particularly December, rain, cold, yucky weather.

25:18 CP: So I just say to folks "Don't give up on each other, don't give up on yourselves." If you're a mandated reporter and you're not sure... When we say make the call, you don't have to think of it as "Make the call 'cause I'm reporting child abuse." It's make the call to say, "Can I just talk this through with you for a moment?" And again, likely you're not gonna get a ChildLine worker or a Child Youth worker who says definitively, "Yes, make a report or no make a report", 'cause they're not assuming the liability for that but they might say, "Have you thought about this?" Or "What other resource is available there?"

25:54 CP: A lot of schools have done a great job around nutrition and connecting kids to meals. I think we could be asking schools to think a little bit more about things like substance use, support groups, recovery, including for kids themselves. That's been that population of folks who have a substance-use disorder is that this is tough. This is tough times. Particularly, as I said, as we go into December and darker months.

26:26 CP: So I'd encouraged people who are connecting with families and kids, think about the whole thing of what makes us whole and healthy. It's food, it's shelter, it is the proper access to and use of substances, it's safety from violence. So kinda go through a checklist and think; "Is any of this going on for this family? Does anybody around me know if any of this is going on for this family?" And then think about what to do for them.

27:02 CP: Don't have your first gut be... Or your only gut be "I gotta make a report to Child Abuse." Think a little bit about it, engage it a little bit but don't ever... If where your gut is, is to make a report, then don't second guess it. Do it.

27:18 JS: That's really helpful and a really great reminder that, again, we're all under a lot of pressure right now and have a lot of different stressors and that we can be collaborative and continue to rely on the support of our colleagues and be able to talk that through and get that support. It seems like throughout the pandemic folks have found new ways to think about prevention which, in my role, I really get an opportunity to talk with prevention educators around the state and it's been an interesting journey making the transition from usually in-person education to a virtual setting.

28:01 JS: Are there other recommendations that you can make to help keep children safe as we continue to live in a virtual world as a result of COVID? 

28:13 CP: Well I think you can't over-emphasize that every kid has to have one trusted party that they can turn to. There's always a trusted adult somewhere. Who is that? Know who that is. I know early in the pandemic and still almost every day, a number of us talk about this concept of an SOS for kids. Early in the pandemic, there were the caravans for birthday parties and teachers driving by kids' houses and many of us were like "Is there something we could do? Is there an app? Is there a blue circle that kids put in the window that's kind of like 'I'm in trouble'?"

28:50 CP: So I do think we have to be more creative than we've ever been. I think again, we talked a lot about how do you reinforce to a mandated reporter that you still have an obligation to report but I would hope that schools aren't skimping in any way and shouldn't be skimping in any way and reinforcing the positive health messages.

29:11 CP: We've seen some great work initiated by a number of advocates: PCAR, The Center, Mission Kids. A bunch of us just sitting around talking about this like, "What about kids who are at home and aren't safe?" And we came up with this concept of, "Could we approach the Attorney General and reframe the Safe2Say law?"

29:33 CP: Maybe not the best idea in the whole world, as if we were going for a Pulitzer Prize maybe we wouldn't get it but it was kind of quick thinking of "You already have a ready platform, you already have a number kids know about, you already have a readily advertised thing like Safe2Say and a mechanism set up, that if somebody does call there expressing concerns, the people answering the phone at Safe2Say are mandated reporters."

30:00 CP: So thankfully the Attorney General and folks really worked pretty well to repackage that message because going into the pandemic, the Safe2Say line was, "We wanna know if you're safe at school" or "How to Keep your School Safe". Clearly kids called for other reasons but largely, it was framed around it, obviously it grew out of one of the tragic American school shootings in this country but it was a nice way to repackage it and remind kids that they deserve to be safe in whatever setting they're in.

30:32 CP: And so we've seen programs like Mission Kids develop a 60-second PSA. The Family Support Line in Delaware County is developing some great little PSAs but also social media campaign, that really speak to teens to say, "If you're in trouble, if you know someone in trouble, here's where to call." So I think everything about this pandemic is this kind of... In one way we have to learn to rewrite the narrative and the lessons and the tools and in another way, we're scrapping things we've long believed in.

31:09 CP: So long we've had the boundaries of, "Don't interact between teachers and parents or coaches and kids in a personal way, share emails and things like that." Heck, that's gone out the window. We've always been, PCAR particularly, has always been big about children shouldn't be in this "protect-themselves mode". We really should have bystanders, we really should make sure that we, the community, are on the lookout for our children and yet here we are where part of what we've had to do in the pandemic is figure out how we reach kids so they can be their own protector.

31:44 CP: Like, "Here's a number to call. Here's what to do to be safe. If you're concerned... " and not just about sexual violence or physical violence but depression. I think probably the other thing that... It's anecdotal, I just wanna underscore that but for somebody who's spent 20 years looking at child fatality numbers and the statistics and the data, it's always been about little people. We always see little people die, zero to three and that is still very true. We are still seeing too many very little people die or nearly die in this pandemic but the number of tweens and teens that are showing up in those charts, that speaks volumes about kids who are struggling with anxiety and substance abuse and mental health issues and if I was struggling to learn and I had an IEP that wasn't working for me when I was in a regular school setting, ugh! You know? 

32:39 CP: And so now, if I'm a parent who's always been a champion for my kid, always been a champion, always on top of the IEP but frankly, him being home or her being home or them being home, 24/7 is driving me crazy. So I think it's just... It's one of those things but it is this odd environment where we cannot do enough right now to remind kids "You can speak up, you should speak up, use your voice" whether that's voices to say, "This stinks, I'm so sad about this pandemic" or whether that voice is "Somebody is touching me, somebody is doing things to me, somebody has taken a belt to me, somebody has threatened me online", do not be afraid to tell children, teenagers, to speak up.

33:34 CP: And then the most important thing I can say, 'cause I'm a parent and I mess this up all the time, is you cannot tell a child or a teen to speak up and not be on guard for your own response. If you are the parent who you tell your kid always to talk, speak up, talk to you and then when they come to you and say "Oh yeah, I forgot that you told me to take out the laundry or the trash" and you start screaming at them or you told them not to do something on social media and they did it but they came and tell you and now you're yelling at them, likely they're not telling you the next time and fundamentally, if a child tells you they're being hurt...

34:14 CP: Years ago we had a debate at a table around the center, back then what we called the Protect Our Children Committee, we wanted to adopt a series of principles and the first principle was that a child should be believed. Wow! Did that set off like a whole sentence of people going "No, no, no, no, you cannot have that there... " because there was a lot of people who were in the business of being independent fact finders, arbitrators and we were like "Whoa! Wait a second. We wanna be clear about this. We are saying that if a child speaks their truth to you, you have to hear them." You have to say "Thank you for sharing that. I'm so sorry that happened to you. What can I do to help? Where do we go from here?"

34:58 CP: Not that, especially if you're talking about a potential crime against a child, in saying I believe the child does not mean that you're nullifying, that there is now an appropriate due process and judicial response that may need to flow from here. So I guess that's a long way of saying that if your life is intersecting with the child in any way, just make sure they know that they're not alone, they have a voice, they'll be heard and that you're scared too. I think sometimes we adults forget to tell kids like "We agree." Like if a kid says to you "This sucks", I hope that's okay to say on a podcast, it's okay to be like "It does, it really does but let's try to find a silver lining"

35:49 CP: So let's not diminish... I sometimes... I had this own experience with our kids early on, that the school was really big on "Send us your happy moments. Tell us what you like. Why are you so happy? What's so mean about this? Totally thought it was cool but I was like "But I think we should also invite them. Like maybe they wanna make a video that... " Like give them a chance to say "Here's what kind of stinks about this pandemic. Here's what stinks about this." And we forget sometimes, we're such big people who are worried about such big things that are real, like can I pay the mortgage, can I get food on the table, am I gonna have a job tomorrow, why is my husband annoying the heck out of me? 

36:29 CP: But sometimes we forget that for kids, it's so so much and I have a child who is a sixth grader and that's in elementary school and then they go to seventh grade so it's a whole new building. So when you get to be a sixth grader, you are like at the top of the food chain, you're at the top of the ladder and his biggest disappointment about school this year, 'cause they're part virtual and part in-person, is that they don't... The sixth graders don't get the back of the bus. Like the little people, 'cause we're keeping pods of kids together. There were days he spent crying his little heart out because "It's just not fair mom. I'm a sixth grader, I should have this part of the bus."

37:13 CP: And I have to say, the first time he said it I was kind of like, "You gotta be kidding me. Are you kidding me?" But we parents, we caregivers, we adults, have to be like get rid of that "You gotta be getting me", 'cause honestly, his not getting to have the right place on the bus is no different than I'm like, "Can I pay the bill this month?" That's big for him and for kids. So just listen to them, be present to them, find something new to do, find something creative and I know we're getting into cold dreary month but put on a coat and get outside, move move move. Find something to do outside and breathe some fresh air.

37:57 JS: This has been a really great reminder that how important it is to listen to kids when they wanna talk to you and that even like with your son, if you're able to acknowledge and validate those feelings, it's more likely that he's gonna be able to come talk to you about other big stuff in his life so I just really love that example.

38:17 CP: And you know it's funny 'cause I just wanna say one other thing 'cause about my teens and my own experience with this. It's a really hard balancing act as a parent that you wanna kinda... I know a lot of parents who... I don't really understand the technology so I'm probably talking out of school but essentially can see a lot of the same texts that their kids see and so it's a pretty close kind of surveillance of their kids' online behavior and they do it for all the right reasons and why they do it is important but I also think we as parents have to take a step back and realize, particularly in this pandemic, that the fundamental place that our teens and tweens may be turning to for support is each other and so my kids and I, again, not to keep going back to my own experience but we had to have a real conversation about privacy.

39:07 CP: Lots of conversations about consent, trust me, PCAR, we're always talking about consent, always thinking about... And different examples depending on the age. So for the younger kids we talk about chewing on a plate and if you ask as you're taking it off the plate that's not really consent. For the older kids we get a little more real about those sexual interactions and things like that.

39:30 CP: But it's... I've really made it a point to talk to my kids about like "I want to be in a spot where I'm not totally surveilling your texts and your social media", because I think it is the one place that kids get to be kids and we all screwed up. I mean, my God, if there had been social media 20 years ago, every time something whacky happened on the playground or in our community, I don't even know where we'd be but I think it's also really important to talk to your kids and say, "If I'm gonna give you that little bit of leeway to say I'm not gonna over-monitor what you look at, because I want you and your friends... "

40:10 CP: Like if one of my son's friends wants to talk to him about something that's really bothering him at home, like "My dad... " and we did have this experience. A father who drank a lot and was pretty abusive to kids and that was opened up too, to one of my children and I didn't know about it because I was monitoring the text, I only knew about it 'cause she spoke to me about it.

40:33 CP: But so how you balance that to say, I'm gonna give you the space to have that private conversation with another teen but I also want you to really understand, you shouldn't carry this alone. Like, "If there's something somebody's talking to you about, even if it's not something immediate that you think you need intervention, safety, intervention... It can be a lot to be the person that your friends go to and talk to you about heavy stuff, like substance use or abuse or self-harm, so make sure you're willing to talk to us about that but also then, make sure your friends know that there's an element of privacy there but if it gets to a point where you really are concerned, then you gotta be. You gotta say privacy." It's like what we say all the time, there is just a point where I wanna be as open and honest and engaging and respect your right to do something but at some point if I think it's unsafe or unwell and it affects more than just you, I'm gonna have to switch the dynamic.

41:40 CP: So I think that's the other thing, is knowing your kids and giving them the right space, the right tools and absolute permission to screw up. To screw up, to be scared, to not make the right things. We have a tendency... There's a song, I don't even know who it is and I heard it a couple months ago and it just sticks with me most days, that it's something like, "Love me" and the... I think actually Delilah Rumberg, former CEO of PCAR might have sent it to me but it's essentially, if you listen to the words, it's just like "If I don't become the A student, if I don't become the special... If I don't have a great career, if I end up incarcerated, will you still love me?"

42:29 CP: And it's clearly a spiritual song but I think it's applicable to our interaction with each other and especially in a society that's been a little less civil and forgiving of each other, to just remind kids that screwing up is part of life and so there's always a place for forgiveness. There's always a place for accountability but there's always a place for forgiveness as well. 'Cause I think if our kids don't believe they can be forgiven or understood, there's really no incentive to speak to us. Because if they fear like you're not gonna hear them, you're gonna shut them down, or you're gonna so totally judge them, why would they even come to us? 

43:08 CP: So again, kinda feel like, "I hope I'm not depressing all the parents out there", that it's like, "That's too many rules, that's too many thoughts." And for us parents, just keep talking to each other and not just the parents, I learn as much from people who don't have kids, who are kinda like... Sometimes they're actually the better folks, 'cause they'll be like, "Really? Have you thought about it from this perspective?" 'Cause sometimes as parents we kinda come together in this shared fraternity-sorority of, "Dang it, these miserable kids, we're in it... " So sometimes we just feed upon ourselves and each other, whereas somebody else with a different perspective might say, "I think they're just looking to be heard, I think they're just looking to be understood," and you're like, "Really? 'Cause that's not what I was thinking." So always be open, open, open, open to being wrong and to listening and to never, never, never forgetting the value of a child. We just can't say that enough, the value of a child.

44:14 JS: Cathy, thank you so much for joining us to talk about how to keep kids safe during this pandemic. Unfortunately, that's all the time we have today but we wanna thank everyone for listening to this episode of PA-Centered and you can learn more about the Center for Children's Justice at c4cj.org. Thanks so much, Cathy.

44:35 CP: Oh, thanks, Jackie, take care, have a good holiday season.

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44:45 JS: If you or a loved one needs help, a local sexual assault center is available 24-7. Call 1-888-772-7227 for more information, or find your local center online at PCAR.org. Together, we can end sexual violence. Any views or opinions expressed on PA-Centered by staff or their guests are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of PCAR or PCAR's funders.