00:00 Jackie Strohm: On Episode Two of PA Centered, Uprooting Racism with Paul Kivel and Loretta Ross, we promised to discuss our racial justice efforts. We are committed to sharing about our efforts, to be an anti-racist organization, and what we have learned along the way. We want to take public accountability for the ways we caused harm, and share our commitment to doing better. We hope others will join us in looking more critically at how their own workplace has upheld white supremacy culture. We are continuously working to do better, and we hope you will join us in this process. With that being said, we are not experts in racial justice, nor have we arrived at the end of our journey. This is ongoing work, and we have a long way to go. We encourage you to partner with, compensate, and uplift the voices and efforts of people and organizations of color that are leading the way in dismantling systems of oppression.

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01:12 JS: Welcome to PA Centered, a podcast designed to help listeners be a part of the solution to end sexual harassment, abuse and assault. Each episode, we will take on a topic or current event to help spark conversation and break down barriers to building communities free from sexual violence.

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01:36 JS: Hi, I'm Jackie Strohm, the Prevention and Resource Coordinator at the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape. I'll be your host today as we're joined by Joyce Lukima, PCAR's Chief Operating Officer and Yolanda Edrington, the National Sexual Violence Resource Center director, to talk about the racial justice work happening at PCAR and NSVRC. Can you start by telling us a bit about yourselves? Yolanda.

02:02 Yolanda Edrington: Hi. Like Jackie said, my name is Yolanda Edrington. I'm the Director at the National Sexual Violence Research Center. I've been here a little over three-and-a-half years, I... Prior to coming to PCAR, I have approximately 20 years of community engagement work and also providing leadership guidance in different helping systems.

02:25 JS: Thanks, Yolanda. Joyce, could you share a bit about yourself? 

02:32 Joyce Lukima: Yeah, thanks, Jackie. I have actually worked at PCAR for going, it'll be 23 years in November. So I've been at the coalition for a long time, and prior to that, I worked at a local rape crisis center in Allentown, Pennsylvania, the Crime Victims Council, the Lehigh Valley. I also worked in a domestic violence center in Texas and did work with rape crisis out there, and way back when, I did my student internship at the Clinton County Center. So obviously, I've been involved in rape crisis work, anti-violence work, for the majority of my career.

03:13 JS: Thank you, both. We're lucky to be able to talk with both of you today. Just so folks understand the connection between PCAR and the NSVRC, Joyce, could you share a little bit about our history and connection? 

03:30 JL: Yeah... It's a really unique organization in that we have our state coalition, and then we also have the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. I try to look at it as two divisions of the same company. We have unified goals providing prevention work, training and technical assistance to help to support survivors, and do everything that we can to engage communities in the prevention of sexual violence. So we have that unified goal and a unified mission, but we both focus a little bit differently with the coalition focusing on Pennsylvania, of course, and then the National Sexual Violence Resource Center focusing on a national level. So they provide work and support across the country.

04:31 JS: Thanks for that, that was really helpful. So diving into our conversation, Joyce, can you share how our commitment to racial justice has grown and expanded over the last few years, and how it connects to our efforts to end sexual harassment, abuse and assault? 

04:52 JL: Yeah. I think that just in a really broad way, we as a coalition, just like many, many other people that are working in the anti-sexual violence movement, have really embraced the reality that until we eliminate all forms of oppression, we are not going to eliminate sexual violence. So I feel like we've really come to embrace that reality, and with that, comes doing diversity work in a much deeper level. I feel like it's something that we've been doing the entire time that I've worked at the coalition, and even prior to my time at the coalition, we did a lot of diversity work, we worked with the Multi-Cultural Institute over the years to do various assessments for our organization. But I think with our most recent years and especially with our current strategic plan where we have put it in writing, and sort of made that commitment to become a racially-just organization, I feel like we've reached a new level, and I think we do that through our language access work, and also in addition to...

06:10 JL: I think when we look at the deeper level, that includes us working not only on the coalition, but each one of ourselves individually, so it's us doing our individual works so that we come together collectively to do better work as a coalition and as a resource center.

06:28 JS: Do you have anything to add to that, Yolanda? 

06:30 YE: Yeah. One of the major things that I do enjoy about working under PCAR is our connection to our partners, our national connection to our partners, and then for us to... During this strategic plan, and like Joyce said prior to, but I'm new, so I'm just only... [chuckle] I've only been here as part of this strategic goal. But to say it out loud, to name it, to call it out, and to listen to our partners when they're giving and when they're calling us in and out on the things that we may have done in the past, or even, hey, this is a long road role right, the things that we may even be doing currently.

07:13 YE: So when we are connecting with our partners, our partners' organizations of color like Black Women's Blueprint, Women of Color Network, DC Rape Crisis Center, these are some of our national partners, it's great to be able to start there, right, and not us assume on what we can do, but really take the guidance from people that are doing the work and help to with... Because we're a mainstream organization to help to make the connection, 'cause if we don't end oppression for the person that's most oppressed, then we can't end violence, and so to be able to take some of that guidance from some of our partners, whether that be national partners or state partners, is a great place to be in, and that is one of the things that I really appreciate during my time here at PCAR.

08:05 JS: Thank you both for sharing that. So in our joint statement that we released about standing together with communities of color, we said, "We are also committed to looking critically at our organization's history and ongoing work and the ways we have been consciously and unconsciously complicit in white supremacy." And so to truly do that, we need to acknowledge some of our mistakes and mis-steps over the years, but I know we've also learned along the way, and that becoming an anti-racist organization is an ongoing process. So I wanted to spend some time talking about when our organization has caused harm or not done the right thing, and what we've learned from that experience. So to start, Yolanda, could you give us an example? 

08:53 YE: So with our hiring process in the past, because we kept it the openings first internally, that also sets us up to... If you have a predominantly white staff, it will continue to be white as you move people through and move people up different levels, if you don't open positions up externally. So that's a major thing that we've done here is to be able to open positions up externally and internally at the same time. So we can diversify our staff and also get the best person that's fit for that opening. And then working with some of our partners like Women of Color Network to review our job description, to give us advice on what to do, and to give us advice on where to now post those job descriptions there that so that we're tapping into communities that we never did before, right.

09:52 YE: And I can even attest to that because that's how I came along. The Women of Color Network, my former job was the Associate Director for NSVRC, and the Women of Color Network was one of the organizations that helped to review [chuckle] that job description that opened up like this... And I saw it and look, now I'm here. So it does work, but that was a struggle that many organizations have about the hiring process on why leadership continues to not be diverse and remain white if you're in a predominantly white company, because a lot of things are only happening internally and you're not bringing any... That fresh look, that fresh eyes, fresh blood, to make some changes. In our past, we had the administrative positions were folks of color. We didn't have really many leadership opportunities for folks of color because we were hiring from within... That's a practice that many organizations have done for years, but you know when you know better, you do better. So we know better, so we're choosing to do better and open up these positions for other people.

11:01 YE: Yeah, so and then also we create space internally for folks of color. So here you are in a predominantly white organization. That life and that work looks different for people of color, so we do have our affinity group for people of color here at PCAR so that there's a separate space to kinda to talk about things that are happening, whether personally or professionally, so that's a major thing that's provided here. So it's upgrading our hiring practices, and also now we have more diverse population... Well, more diverse staff coming in, what space are we creating for success? And so those are some things that we're still learning, still working on. But to make that stance, like this is a priority for us, I think is great.

11:55 JS: Thank you for that. Joyce, do you have anything else you wanted to add around what we've learned about our hiring process? 

12:02 JL: Yeah. I think just the things that Yolanda emphasized, like the importance of one, making sure that you're providing opportunities to a wider range of folks, and then once people are in the organization, providing that support. To me, both of those things that she talked about are just integral to the work that we're doing and recognizing the importance of doing that.

12:33 JS: I know there was another example of a growth opportunity we had wanted to talk about... So Joyce, if you wanna take that? 

12:41 JL: Yeah, I think in the past, one of the things that we did, and there are many things, I think when Jackie talked at the top of the interview just about us recognizing and acknowledging when we had mistakes and mis-steps, I think it's that whole idea of good intentions, but really not using that as... I don't wanna use it as a cop-out, I guess. As Yolanda just said, "When you know better, we do better," so... So when we were developing resources, we would develop resources and then say, "If it were targeted for a specific community, we may involve folks from some of the culturally-specific organizations out there in the review process, or even sometimes if it were for a specific community, we maybe, maybe had included them upfront.

13:41 JL: But I think over time, we recognized that we were doing folks a disservice, on both ourselves and other organizations, by not including them upfront, and including culturally-specific organizations in the work we're doing regardless of the focus of the resource, whatever that might be, the resource or training, but doing it on many levels, because sometimes there might be something that we don't know that may impact a specific community, and as white women, white people, we're not gonna have an awareness of that, but if we are including our partners from culturally-specific organizations upfront, they're able to identify those things and really help to shape the resources that we're developing rather than coming in midway or on the back end and trying to change something that we probably should have been going in another direction anyway.

14:46 JL: So, I feel like that was a really big learning lesson for all of us, especially considering that one of our primary functions, both as a coalition and the resource center, is to develop trainings and resources, so making sure that those partnerships are in place at the beginning of the initiative and ideally in the planning phases. And I think we have some great examples of different resources and different initiatives that we're working on, where we're actually partnering in the beginning, and then also making sure that there are resources for those organizations included in whatever the project that you're doing. And so, when you're doing budgeting and some of those more practical things that people don't think about, but making sure that you're putting the funds there to compensate folks for their time and helping us out. So I feel like, for us, that was a really big learning thing was to just be better at including people upfront.

15:51 JS: Thanks. Yolanda, is there anything else you wanted to add? 

15:56 YE: Yeah, just to add onto what Joyce was saying, that one of the things that we're doing with adding a line item in the grant proposal, 'cause historically, what we'll say is, "Oh, we don't have any funding, we don't have any funding," but did we put the funding in at the beginning?" You know, let the funder tell you, "No." Put it in there, like our language access line to make sure that we can supply more resources in different languages and be able to trans-create some of our resources or... The goal is to trans-create all of them, but if we don't put out that funding line in there, we limit that access to someone else, we're doing that to them.

16:37 YE: And then the grant-writing process is like the first step of that. Put that line item in there because it all connects to the work. It's not an extra step, it's all included in the work, so just to document that in the application at the beginning allows us to reach out to partners right at the beginning and have people just included and for us to grow our knowledge, grow our connections within a community, whether that be national or state, and really just elevate the work that is already being done by the organizations that are doing it, and that we can just uplift that...

17:23 JS: Thank you both for sharing those examples. I know it can be hard to take a look back at how we've had those mis-steps, but as you've explained, there's lots of opportunity for growth and lessons learned along the way. So as a follow-up to that question, as an organization, what kinds of things are we doing to help individual staff members do the work necessary to make progress? 

17:50 YE: Well, currently, we have our racial justice trainings, and right now we're working with Joanna Gattuso and Christine DeJohn and they're coming in quarterly and providing trainings for the entire staff. And after those trainings, they do follow-ups and they also give us personal homework for us to do in between time, and that is really talking about self-development and then starting from self and bringing it into your organization, it's... The great thing about our consultants is it's... Yeah, it's wonderful for the organization to change. But if people don't do the work internally, it will just keep coming up, whatever that it is, and it will affect the organization. So to do the work personally and to have a buddy, to connect with a buddy at work, that's one of the homework assignments too. Allow some self-evaluation and some self-work.

18:47 YE: So I really appreciate that we don't have that one diversity meeting that a lot of organizations have yearly, that it's broken up to quarterly, and then also time, work to be done in between on self and partnering with someone that you feel comfortable with in your organization, to really hold each other accountable as individuals. So we have some of our work groups, like we have our affinity work group, which is called Race and Cultural Equity, and that work group is specific for staff members of color in the organization to be able to have space to talk about the different things that their experience, how we are experiencing here at the organization. Then we also have our White Caucus Racial Equity Workgroup, which is for our non-staff of color to be able to hold each other accountable and to talk about things that are... They're experiencing at work or... And the really good thing about the White Caucus Workgroup is that's also a space of vulnerability. I think all of the workgroups are a space of vulnerability too, but here's a safe space to call a co-worker in and out maybe about behaviors or things that we've learned in our racial justice trainings. So that's a really, I think, a very important workgroup to have. And then we have our building accountability for cultural humility, which is our back workgroup, where all of these sub-workgroups kinda go up under our back workgroup, and that's really focused on the entire organization of some social change.

20:29 JS: Thanks for sharing about all of that. Joyce, is there anything else you wanted to share that we're doing around individual work with staff? 

20:37 JL: I think... I know it's part of our racial justice work, but I think just trying to change our culture within the organization to where people are more comfortable giving and receiving feedback. To me, that's one of the major things that I've seen over the past couple of years where we're just trying to have that culture of accountability. And even though it's hard and sometimes it just doesn't feel very good, I feel like we're really... We're working on that and trying in different venues. So I find that to be one of those areas.

21:19 YE: And along with that, we have our... Diversity is a standing agenda item on all of our meetings. So incorporating diversity into the conversation on a regular basis is I think a major step for a organization to do when it no longer feels like extra work, that it is part of a conversation. And we're not all the way there yet. We have steps to go, but it's refreshing to be able to see standing agenda items in that when we're in meetings, many people are engaging in conversations and talking about how they're now having the lens or, starting to have the lens of diversity in the projects that they're doing and the people that they're connecting with. And then that's like a really thought... I thought this right at the forefront of people's minds here at PCAR.

22:11 YE: And also over the last two years, what we've done on our work plans, and our work plans are the things that we're gonna work on throughout that year, pretty common in organizations is lay those goals that are on their SMARTIE. And SMARTIE just simply stands for that the goal is Strategic, Measurable, Ambitious, Realistic, Time-bound, Inclusive, and Equitable. So it's the inclusive and equitable which was new for us, making sure that at least 50% of our goals are SMARTIE over these last two years. But having that as a requirement for all staff that these goals are really... Are able to be measured with being inclusive and equitable throughout the entire time just keeps fresh eyes on our goal of becoming an anti-racist organization.

23:06 JL: I think too, one thing I wanted to just add in with the SMARTIE goals is I feel like we start in our interview process sort of laying the groundwork for the fact that racial justice is connected to our work. And I feel like the SMARTIE goals are just one way that illustrate that. But even in the questions that we ask in our interviews, asking folks about oppression and racial justice in the interview process, I think it signals a really important thing to anybody who's coming to work at our organization. And then we sort of follow it up by saying, "Hey, in your work plan, this is how important it is for us that we wanna make sure that it's here too. So no matter what your position is, whether you're a project manager versus an IT person, this is gonna be part of your job and something that we value as an organization."

24:09 JS: Yeah, and I can share as a staff person that it's been really helpful to outline our work in that way. And even though sometimes people aren't sure exactly how that relates, we've been able to have conversations about how racial justice is part of IT and it's part of the fiscal team, not just those of us who are creating resources and doing training. So I think we've all really found a way that we need to make sure that anti-racism and anti-oppression is built into our work plan. So I know that we aren't experts in racial justice work, but since we've been doing this work, do you have any words of encouragement or advice to share with organizations who are trying to also become anti-racist? Yolanda, if you'd like to start.

24:57 YE: Hearing this question makes me think of a conversation that I just had with... So working with some local organizations too, like Young Professionals of Color of Greater Harrisburg with one of the co-founders, Dr. Kimeka Campbell, when we were talking about supporting black leadership and what that really means when you say the word "support," and that support looks different. And so if you're asking an organization how do they wanna be supported, that we are actually supporting them in the way that they set. And if we cannot do something that we say, we can't do it. But support is not giving them a request. "Oh, I need you to be on this," that's not actual support. And then you're causing... In most organizations of color, especially within our field, are already stretched really thin on capacity in organizations, 'cause they're usually smaller.

25:58 YE: So, just always have it in the back of your mind, are you supporting or are you causing more work? The things that you're asking, could you Google... Could you go to their website and figure it out without saying to them, "Hey, can you tell me what this means?" Well, it may already be on their website, at least to do your homework, so it doesn't cause them more labor and more frustration. So that's one of the things that just really resonated with me, having that conversation with Dr. Campbell is about really what does support look like, and to be okay with the specifics that that organization is giving and to just be honest with that organization if you can or you can't, or maybe that one thing they ask you looks different. And I'll give even a personal example with all things that were going on in the world, co-workers tapping in and just checking on to see how I was personally doing. And one co-worker offering to give me notes from a meeting so I didn't have to go to the meeting, to give me back some time, and I'm always pretty upfront and honest about what I'm going through, or when I need time, and I said it. So their support was being able to say, "Hey, don't worry about that meeting. I looked at the agenda, it's nothing as particular that you probably need to be on. I'll give you those notes."

27:31 YE: That support... That looks really different from someone saying, "Hey, let me know if you need anything." [chuckle] That person probably is not gonna get back to you and let you know, but when you ask a specific question, "Can I give you the notes to the meeting so you don't have to go? I looked at the agenda and it's nothing that's really high level. I'll do that right there. And you take the time to yourself." So those are just a few examples on what how, what support really, really looks like.

28:05 JS: Joyce, what kind of advice or encouragement do you have to share with other organizations? 

28:12 JL: Well, I feel like I say this all the time, but just that this is a long journey. I think sometimes in a really, really fast-paced world that we think we're gonna have a training or an event of some kind and it's gonna fix all the problems and it's gonna make your organization a racially just organization. But it isn't... That's not the way it is. This is work that we have to do over time, and we also have to be willing to be flexible with our vision and our goals, because something that you envision as being sort of the panacea or the answer today... Five or 10 years from now is gonna look very differently and I think... We've even seen that around our work with sexual violence and many other things, so our goals are... We're gonna always hopefully be pushing ourselves to do better, but what doing better looks like is going to change over time and evolve if we're doing things the right way. Also, I think just being comfortable or learning how to be more comfortable with... And we were hearing this a lot now, being comfortable with being uncomfortable, but part of that is checking your defensiveness, and I think especially those of us that are in management or leadership roles, often times we sort of feel the weight of the organization and the reputation of the organization on our shoulders.

29:52 JL: But it doesn't mean that you can't acknowledge when your organization isn't doing the best that it could do or when it isn't meeting a challenge that it can meet because we're all human. None of us are perfect. So I think just being more comfortable with that defensiveness and that's especially when people are calling you in on things, and I say that like it's easy, knowing that I myself, it's one of the things that I really struggle with quite a lot, and I feel like I've gotten better with it over the years, but I still have my moments and... Yeah, and just being... Recognizing that we're not perfect. I think it's okay to recognize and give yourself the generosity that you might make mistakes at times, but then the important part of that is when you make those mistakes and when you're aware of them, then you need to do something different. It's not just like saying, "I'm sorry." and next week doing the exact same thing again. You need to do something to actually change the work that you're doing or how you're behaving in the world, and I think that applies to all of us regardless of where we are at with things.

31:14 YE: So the one thing that I did wanna add is also recognizing the seats that you hold and how you can use those seats for real change, and that's something that we've started to talk about a lot. So we can always talk about the seat that PCAR as an organization holds and the power that comes with that seat. It's something else when we also... We have our organization, the overall umbrella company, and then we have our state coalition and we also have our National Resource Center, and those are three major seats that are held in this field, and then let's go ahead and back it up some more. Each individual of our 50-something staff here also are part of boards, are a part of advisory councils, are part of family, and that's where that independent change starts when you... You know, we'll call out someone or call it in pleasantly, one of your family members that may have may misspeak about something, or you're helping them to give them more updated information.

32:19 YE: That's how kind I'm gonna put it. You're giving a person more updated information. [chuckle] So that they can make better decisions later on. It's all these little steps and these... What seems like little steps. But they're huge when we take personal accountability in the different spaces that we live in and really tap into those resources. And so, that's something that we've talked about a lot at PCAR is like, "What do you sit at? Where do you sit at? What's that opinion? How can you do this? How can we do that? What knowledge can we bring? What knowledge do we need?" And really just being mindful about our individual work that needs to be done, that it's just not about the organization, it's also about individual work. So that's one of the recommendations that I would give to anyone that wants to do this work is also... Yeah, hold your organization accountable, absolutely, but also hold yourself accountable and figure out where that starts at, and really work on that personal journey.

33:24 JS: Yolanda and Joyce, thank you so much for joining us to talk about the racial justice work happening at PCAR and the NSVRC. Before we close, we wanted to share a few organizations of color that have been doing this work for a long time and are doing this work so well. So we encourage you to learn more about and support Black Women's Blueprint, Moving to End Sexual Assault, the National Organization of Asian and Pacific Islanders Ending Sexual Violence, Visioning BEAR Circle Intertribal Coalition, and the DC Rape Crisis Center, and we'll make sure that we link to all of those organizations in the description so that you can check them out. Thank you again, Joyce and Yolanda.

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34:16 JS: If you or a loved one needs help, a local Sexual Assault Center is available 24-7. Call 1-888-772-7227 for more information or find your local Center online at pcar.org. Together, we can end sexual violence. Any views or opinions expressed on PA Centered by staff or their guests are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of PCAR or PCAR's funders.