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00:08 Jackie Strohm: Welcome to PA Centered. A podcast designed to help listeners be a part of the solution to end sexual harassment abuse and assault, each episode we will take on a topic or current event to help spark conversation and break down barriers to building communities free from sexual violence.

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00:30 JS: Hi everyone, I'm Jackie Strohm the Prevention and Resource Coordinator at the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape. I'll be your host today as we're joined by Annie Gebhardt to talk about online training strategies. Hi Annie.

00:43 Annie Gebhardt: Hi.

00:44 JS: Thanks for joining us.

00:45 AG: Thank you so much for having me.

00:47 JS: I'd like to start by having you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.

00:52 AG: Absolutely, so I joined the movement End sexual and domestic violence around 20 years ago. Since then I have worked with community and campus-based programs as an advocate, and community educator and a self-defense instructor. Through that work I eventually found myself in a master's in Public Health program with a focus on health behavior and health education. And after that, I worked at PCAR and NSVRC for about seven and a half years. And then during that time, I... For a large part of that time led the e-learning work group, and so spend a lot of time thinking about effective training in both online and face-to-face formats and really through all of my work. A consistent thread has been a real passion for designing and facilitating and evaluating, learning opportunities that really meaningfully impact people and their communities. So, worked at PCAR and NSVRC until last year, my family made the huge decision to relocate to California. But I am so excited to be able to continue connecting with PCAR and with Pennsylvania Centers.

02:06 JS: We're so excited to talk today about best practices for online training, especially in the wake of Covid-19, wanting to find ways to continue connecting with our communities and a lot of that is happening in virtual settings. And so, could you tell us some best practices for training, whether it's in person or online? 

02:28 AG: Yeah, one of the things that I think is really helpful for both in-person and online training is to really approach training as if it's a dress rehearsal for what you want learners to be doing in real life. And so a lot of the time that means sort of starting at the end and working backwards thinking, about what it is that you want learners to be able to do as a result of the training 'cause usually we're providing training, because we want people to be able to do something a little bit better or at least differently than the way they're doing it right now. So, really spending time on those learning objectives that we all know and often despise that sort of come at the beginning of a PowerPoint presentation of, "This is what you're gonna get out of the training. But those really can be meaningful if we really sit down and think about what is it that I want people to be doing better or differently after this training.

03:23 AG: For us a lot of the time, it's I want people to be more able to ask for consent in their everyday life. I want people to be more able to identify abusive or harassing behavior and I want people to be more able to do something or say something when they see it happening, those kinds of things like our work is really about changing people's behavior, for the better. And so thinking about that. And then thinking how can I actually get people to be practicing those behaviors and skills in the safe, low stakes environment of the training because imparting knowledge about how to do those things is a really important piece of it. But we know from tons of research that knowledge is unfortunately not enough to actually change people's behavior, for the long-term. So we wanna think about how we can have people practice the skills and then work backwards from there, to design our training content to give them the information and the tools that they'll need to be able to succeed in those activities during the training, and then in the real lives after the training when they leave.

04:33 AG: So I think that's a big piece, and then really connected to that is to treat learners as active collaborators in learning. Learners don't come to training as empty vessels ready to be filled. All learners come to training with a wealth of previous experience and knowledge, and their own ideas about whatever it is that you're training them about. And I think across any age, we can use those experiences and those insights as a resource to really collaboratively create learning for everyone in that space. There's a guide from Office for Victims of Crime called Ultimate educator that I absolutely love and they talk about some rules of adult learning that I think are really applicable again for any age and one is that people don't argue with their own data. So if I say what you think is wrong and you should believe this other thing instead, because I say so, it's less likely to be impactful or effective for them.

05:37 AG: Then if as a trainer, I can really lead a process of guided discovery and through discussion, through problem solving through case studies help people bring what they already know and believe into the room, kind of compare it up against new messages I might be giving them and really do sort of some collective exploration and discovery to reach new and better informed conclusions and that makes it stickier, and more meaningful for people when we can do that.

06:10 JS: That's great. I always think about what I've learned from you around adult learning. And one of my favorite things is when you say, adults are babies with big bodies and how so much of what we used to learn about and how we would learn in kindergarten, and elementary school, we've lost as we've got an older... But what we found is that adults actually they want to engage in those activities and they want to feel like they're part of that learning process.

06:39 AG: Absolutely, yeah, just like babies. Adult learners need a lot of stimulation, a little bit of structure encouragement and a lot of space to really explore and to discover, and to have that hands-on learning experience.

06:55 JS: That's great. So if someone wanted to transition an in-person training or event that they had previously planned into an online format, what are some of the things that they might need to consider? 

07:08 AG: I think there are a lot. I sort of have been thinking about breaking it down into three big categories, audience tools and time. So thinking about your audience, of course, for any training in any format, we wanna make sure we're tailoring our training so that it's relevant and accessible and developmentally appropriate to our audience.

07:30 AG: And sometimes that can look different for online training, what's developmentally appropriate, I personally find zoom to be a super useful largely intuitive platform, it would take a lot of effort to get my seven-year-old ready to use Zoom for really meaningful, engaged learning in the same way. So, thinking about it, about some of that. And then also again the same is in person, it's important to consider the size of the group because as we're planning in a face-to-face classroom different activities, we need to know how many people and will small group work for that large group and if we do a large group discussion can everyone be heard? And we're used to thinking some of those things through, and really the same applies, but just a little bit differently in online learning.

08:18 AG: Because some of the tools in an online learning platform like the chat or polls might be especially effective for a large group where turning on a white board or annotations and letting people mark up slides if you have 50 people on is probably gonna descend into chaos. So thinking about matching the size of your group to the activities that you're planning. And then really, I think, possibly, the most important thing to know about your audience when you're planning online learning is how familiar they are with online learning and what kinds of tools they've used. So you might be hosting online learning in your own platform which may be familiar to some of your learners and less to others, so sort of planning for them in advance, spending some time at the beginning of your training to really orient people to the tools in your online platform.

09:14 AG: Or you might be guest presenting or guest facilitating in another organization's platform or a school's platform where those learners are in that online space all the time and there might be a particular set of tools that they're already really comfortable with using. So I think that is your communicating with a point of contact in scheduling the training trying to get some information about what is this audiences' previous experience with online learning, how has that been going? What kinds of tools are they familiar with and used to using. Are there tools outside of an online learning platform that they use that could potentially be brought in that you can also use as a resource, whether it's Google Drive, or Google Docs or Kahoot whatever kind of other things that you can then use as a resource that will be meaningful and familiar to them. Then related to that knowing your tools to consider really what's available. Most online platforms, really designed for learning, have a pretty similar set of tools of audio-video conferencing chat, polls whiteboard annotations sometimes break out rooms, those kinds of things.

10:29 AG: But those tools might be easier to use in some platforms than others. So kind of thinking about how easy is it to find and use and explain the controls to learners depending on the platform that you're using and then also knowing if you're gonna be able to have a co-host or a co-facilitator because some of those tools, you might really only wanna use if you have a buddy in your training with you to help you with the behind the scenes management of some of that.

10:58 AG: And then the last piece I think to consider is time, both in terms of how much time do you have to adapt your training, from face-to-face to an online format because it can really take a lot of time. I heard a radio interview recently with the Chancellor of the California State University system and the interviewer said, "Well if you're gonna be offering more classes online in the fall does that mean you can furlough more professors because they can pre-record lectures and it will take less faculty time to deliver classes? And I think that that's a misconception that has been circulating a lot. And the chancellor I was really excited to hear him say in my experience it actually takes more time to deliver online learning in a really effective way than classroom time, because you still have to have that engagement piece, you still have to plan for that, you still have to structure that in.

12:00 AG: So just being mindful that if you need to do a training next week that might be really hard to adapt it online in a meaningful way. And then thinking about too how much time you need to deliver your training. So if you're looking at a training that in-person would take two eight-hour days, to meaningfully facilitate, please don't do that to your learners online. The attention span, patience all of those things are so much harder in an online setting for people to just be looking at a screen for two full eight-hour days as so many people have experienced during COVID-19. So maybe thinking about how long would the training take in-person and are there other ways to sort of restructure that time? Can you do some pre-learning with video and then have shorter time in person? Are there bits and pieces that you can present in shorter chunks over longer period of time, to really thinking through that time and being mindful of learner's constraints as far as their attention, and their patients with online learning? 

13:10 JS: Yes, I've absolutely heard an experience throughout this time about Zoom fatigue and how it can be really draining, to look at a screen for that long. So I think it makes a lot of sense what you're saying about you can't always just take exactly how you were planning on doing it and making it happen online, because not everything's gonna work the same, and holding people's attention spans makes a lot of sense that it's easy to get distracted when you're sitting on a computer. If you have multiple screens, especially folks can be checking their email or doing other things. So how can we make online training more interactive for people and how can we really help them feel connected and engaged and wanting to actively participate in the training that they're taking part in? 

14:00 AG: Yeah, that is a great question, and I think just like you said, the challenge of sort of the temptation of email, and the temptation of text messaging, and the temptation of other work that people are looking at in the background on their screen while they're listening to your training is really different than some of the potential distractions or temptations that happen in a face-to-face classroom. But I think really when it comes down to it, I think the strategies for engagement are really similar to what we're used to doing in really dynamic interactive face-to-face trainings we just maybe have to be a little bit more mindful and intentional about them, and they happen in a little bit of a different way. So I think a huge thing for getting people engaged, getting trainings interactive keeping them interactive is to start from the very beginning, to engage people, as soon as they're joining the session, and then to keep it going the whole time.

15:03 AG: So, particularly for live online sessions, I think as soon as people are joining in, try to have an ice breaker open. Maybe it's something in chat, maybe it's a poll maybe it's annotating something, but have something open so that, as soon as people are joining the session, they have something to do to weigh in, to share a perspective, to be talking about where they're calling in from or who they are or their prior experience related to your topic so that people are starting to connect with each other and you're really laying, laying the foundation, setting the tone for your whole training that this is going to be a space where we want to hear from everyone where we're going to engage people's voices and we're gonna have conversation directly with one another through the group. And then again, keep that going, right? 

15:53 AG: So general sort of advice out there from the experts in online learning is to really aim to engage online learners every three to five minutes some even say, every two to three minutes with some opportunity for them to offer their insights, or to share their perspective or apply what they're learning in the training. And that's a lot... Every three to five minutes, is a lot, but it is so important. Again, in online learning to have people feel like they're in a group setting together that they... That their presence is noticed, that their presence matters, that their contributions are making a difference in this learning space so that they're better able to resist the temptation to go respond to that email or see what's happening on Facebook right now, or those kinds of things.

16:48 AG: And the key to holding learners' interest is variety. So as you're engaging people every three to five minutes, trying to mix up. Now we're gonna do a chat and now we're gonna do a poll. You don't have to use all of the bells and whistles 'cause that can get sort of confusing and feel a little bit jumbled, but kind of mixing it up so that people aren't just like... Okay, three minutes, poll. Three minutes, poll. Three minutes, poll and then a chat. We wanna really have those varied teaching methods. And then through all of that, I think it's important to give learners clear instructions and multiple options for how they engage.

17:25 AG: So if people aren't sure what the question is, that they're responding to in a poll, it's harder for them to feel confident answering it. So as you're asking people to respond to questions, it's a good idea to put the question on a slide on the screen maybe put instructions for what you want them to do on the screen and then also explain them verbally just so that people can engage with more confidence and know that they're following along with you. And then making sure that you have other options. So if you're having people annotate something on a slide, also make it an option for people to add their comments in the chat, or to unmute their mic and share out loud because not all learners will have the same level of access to everything that's happening in the session. Like learners who are using a screen reader or who are dialed in by phone won't be able to see the white board, but they can still participate verbally.

18:26 JS: And I think a special consideration for the population that we're working with, especially when folks are isolated at home right now, youth might have different access to technology and they're in different living situations that sometimes they might be safe and other times they're not. So I know we've had conversations about trying to give those options so that people feel like they can participate. It might only be safe for them to type into the chat versus turning their video or microphone on.

19:00 AG: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

19:04 JS: So we've talked a lot about live online trainings, but I would love to spend a few minutes talking about making videos and pre-recorded trainings. I feel like those can be extra challenging to try and engage people and make them feel like they're watching Mr. Rogers or Sesame Street or something like that. So do you have any tips for folks about how to make some of those videos feel more interactive and engaging? 

19:37 AG: Yeah, I think that it's really hard to make a video interactive, but I think there are a lot of things that can help people feel more connected, that can apply equally to a live online training and a pre-recorded online training or video. So I think just greeting people as they join the session, starting out from a really personable, welcoming place expressing appreciation for people joining you, the same as you would if they were joining you face-to-face, can make it feel like you're there with them in a way. Like they're not just anonymous in a weird way, even though you know you're watching a video, it can make you feel seen, and make you feel just acknowledged and appreciated.

20:28 AG: And then in an online, live training that especially goes and is important, I think offering praise and positive feedback again in an online training or even in a video expressing confidence in people's knowledge and abilities around the topic that you're training them about. Creating opportunities for people to engage with one another, or with other people in their lives. So in a live online training, you can set up break out rooms or the chat or discussions for people to be able to hear directly from one another. If you're doing a pre-recorded training maybe consider if there are places for a discussion board, maybe their group has a discussion board or some place where people can continue to communicate with each other directly or maybe it's through social media or maybe you can share ways that they can connect with you outside of your pre-recorded training video. Connect with you or your organizations, social media or LISTSERV's or those kinds of things to just really be thinking about ways to foster connections beyond that training.

21:38 AG: And then, I think across the board being yourself is so important, on video or in a live training. It feels really weird to be talking to a computer screen or to be talking to a camera lens and it feels to me really easy to sort of fall in to my professional demeanor like this is my... This is my fancy talk. That doesn't sound like me. So I think as you're planning your training, as you're facilitating your training, recording your training, use appropriate humor if that's your thing, work in relevant anecdotes that help elaborate on what you're talking about with examples maybe from your own life for examples that are gonna be relatable to your audience express within reasonable boundaries, your own feelings and reactions to things, like really be a person, and that can help people feel more engaged and connected as well. And a big piece of that is being conversational. So thinking about your tone of voice which really takes on extra significance when people aren't physically with you, and if people can't see you or at least see all of you and read all of your body language and video and things like that.

22:57 AG: And then talking to the camera again for both live online training, and pre-recorded video. It's really best practice, even though it's really hard to look into the camera lens as you talk to create that sort of illusion of making direct eye contact with your audience. So if you think about TV news anchors who are really popular YouTubers if you watch them, they're not looking kind of at their own image on the screen, or usually at cue cards off to the side, they're really looking directly into the camera lens and making that eye contact and it's such a small thing, but I think it really can make a difference for people again feeling seen, and feeling like they have some relationship with you.

23:47 JS: And it sounds like it might take a little bit of practice, and I know for myself, for myself having to do some videos in the last few weeks here has been hard. And even trying to get the camera angle and make sure the sound quality is good. So I think it makes a lot of sense for us to extend some grace to ourselves and that this is a learning experience for a lot of us.

24:13 AG: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that that is huge, to really approach all of this from a place of learning because it's always true that we can learn as much from our learners as they do from us and that's maybe doubly so when we're sort of going on to a... Entering into this journey of facilitating online learning is when we approach it as a learning opportunity for ourselves, we can give ourselves permission to try new things and know that sometimes they might not work out, sometimes the technology might fail us. And also stay open to feedback from learners. If people are saying these polls, aren't working for me or whatever, whatever we're hearing, back from people, we can just continue to take baby steps and take it a little bit at a time, because nobody becomes an expert of online learning overnight. It can take a lot of practice for sure. We're all there.

25:10 JS: Absolutely. So our last question is really, are there times when people shouldn't move their trainings online? 

25:18 AG: This is such a brilliant... And I think difficult question and I don't have an answer for it really, I think that I might have had an answer with more confidence three months ago than I do right now. There's the saying that, necessity is the mother of invention. And boy, have we had a necessity for online learning these last three months and I have been just blown away by all of the really innovative work, I have seen people doing with moving their in-person trainings into various online formats really successfully and really creatively. And so I think there are things that I might have said three months ago, like, "Oh this kind of training probably wouldn't work online and I've been proven wrong by other people's innovation and creativity, so I think we're in a really exciting time right now of finding out what works because more and more people again out of necessity, are coming into the world of online learning as learners.

26:27 AG: And so I think people's capacities are may be increasing, but we're also learning more about the limits of those capacities for people. So I just think the realm of possibility is a lot bigger than it was at the beginning of 2020, but at the same time, even as much as I believe in the possibilities for online learning to be as engaging and dynamic and effective as in-person training. Personally as both a trainer and a learner, I will always prefer face-to-face to an online format. So when it's not a matter of necessity, I think it will continue to be important to really weigh the pros and cons of face-to-face and online formats. They both have benefits they both have drawbacks, and barriers that come with them.

27:18 AG: And I think that the most important consideration, to weigh and that really has to do with equity and, accessibility, so we know that there is a huge digital divide in terms of internet connectivity and access along lines of class and race and ability, and age. And when we're going into physical spaces that have some degree of equal access, like public schools or some community settings, there can be more equitable access to the trainings that we're delivering and an online format may create some barriers there. But we have to try to really find out and not just assume, because on the flip side, there are some folks who may be more able able to access our trainings online because of barriers and transportation or physical accessibility or safety in face-to-face training spaces. So it's really a mix but I think really important questions for us to consider moving forward as we're thinking about those formats and the options that we have.

28:21 JS: Annie, thank you so much for joining us to talk about online training today. We are unfortunately out of time, for this episode, but I wanna say thank you and all of you can look forward to some resources that Annie helped create that will be available on pcar.org.

28:39 JS: Thank you so much, Jackie.

28:41 JS: Alright, take care and thank you for listening to this episode of PA Centered.

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28:52 JS: If you or a loved one needs help, a local Sexual Assault Center is available 24/7. Call 1-888-772-7227. For more information or find your local center online at pcar.org. Together we can end sexual violence. Any user opinions expressed on PA Centered by staff or their guests are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of PCAR or PCAR's funders.