JS: And so most of our listeners are people who work within the field of sexual violence prevention and response. And in our field, sexual harassment, abuses and assault is often referred to as gender-based violence, which highlights sexism as the foundation of sexual violence. So can you explain the importance of acknowledging and centering racism in these conversations? 

0:35:26 BT: Well, I'll start, but Tina has lots to say about this, so I won't go on at a lot of length. At PCAR, you produced a wonderful drawing of the pyramid of racial and sexual violence that shows that the escalating costs of both racism and sexism and the similarity of weapons that are used in both racism and sexism. So sure, your listeners have already seen that and had some discussion of it. But if they haven't, I would really recommend it as a tool that shows this very thing that you're asking us about. The other thing I think is the history of how intertwined racism and sexism and colonialism are in our two countries. So white men colonized and enslaved and raped black and indigenous women, as well as white women. And white women were higher in the pecking order. And part of being higher in the pecking order was in fact participating in some way in keeping that pecking order alive. And we talk about this in the union movement because white workers were taught that they could get more crumbs from the livings if they participated in the racism against black and indigenous people in your country and in our country as well.

0:37:06 BT: So that history is still alive and well in our reflexes in what was handed down in the images of who matters, who should get the benefit of the doubt, who you can do violence to with impunity. So we've seen this with cases like Sandra Bland in your country. Was she stopped because she was black or a black woman and the kind of violence that was done to her? And I think for racialized women or women of black... Indigenous and women of color, it's pretty hard to know sometimes whether you're being underestimated, abused, harassed because you're a woman or because of your skin color. So in a situation like you're in where you're trying to serve all women and deal with the trauma of all women, it's pretty hard to deal with the trauma if you're only dealing with one part of it. You actually have to imagine all of the facets of the trauma that this particular woman in this body has experienced in order to be able to support her. So I'll just start with that and Tina take up from there.

0:38:32 TL: It's such a critical question and I feel like we need all day to explore it but I think Barb has said some critical pieces about it. One of the things I really appreciate about that pyramid that Barb mentioned is that I think when I've worked with organizations dedicated to advocating against sexual violence and changing public policy, all the women in the room, regardless of how they self-identify in terms of race or sexuality or country of origin, will all agree about the aspects of sexism that your pyramid demonstrates. How it puts women at risk or, and trans people who self-identify as women or as female so there is that shared understanding. Where we start to actually fracture as coalitions or as groups who are dedicated to acting on sexual violence is where we start to probe the fact that not all women have the same experience and that if we're going to be doing effective prevention work, we have to look at how some women are even more at risk than others and I think that's one of the places where we experience resistance.

0:40:15 TL: In much the same way as when we say "Black Lives Matter" and then you have some folks who say "All Lives Matter" and we just... Where do we begin? It's a similar kind of thing. It's like sexual violence is wrong and women need to be protected and then we say "Yes but not all women's lives are the same." and we need to have a frank conversation about how racism is shaping this because the data in the United States and the data in Canada all says that the people most at risk of sexual violence are indigenous and women of color. Indigenous women and women of color, in all the data, are the ones who are most at risk so if we were to examine that, that would mean that indigenous and racialized women actually have the most knowledge about what the root causes are and would actually have significant knowledge and information that needs to shape the policies and practices and decision-making of our organizations, if we're going to be effective in our prevention work, in our policy development and if we're gonna be effective in reducing sexual violence.

0:41:40 TL: That should be a rational process of thought that would have us arrive at a recognition that you cannot separate sexual violence from conversations about racism and poverty because the data also says that the people who are most at risk of poverty are also indigenous women and women of color. That can't be debated anymore because any statistics, any report you look at, has established that. One of the difficulties that I face and that I hope is relevant to you is that when I look at how women became involved in sexual violence advocacy and then became leaders, the ones that I've met in the organizations that I've worked with, they were friends of friends. There wasn't... Before the government actually established funding and programs, women were organizing on behalf of each other, often through churches but also for the LGBTQ folks through friendships and networks, organized with each other and started to build organizations and most of the friends that got together were white. It was white women organizing with friends who were white women.

0:43:11 TL: They had access to the resources, they had access to the men who knew where to get the money, where to make the application and they were seen to be trustworthy, etcetera and didn't have the friends who were indigenous or racialized. Now, we're at a place where we're beginning to question, what kinds of expertise are needed to do sexual violence work and when we say that we need to look at racism, I find that many women who have dedicated their lives to this work, so I have some compassion. Many of the women who are working in organizations that PCAR is the umbrella for, have worked very hard for low wages often, with few resources and feel like they've been doing their best with very little appreciation and not a whole lot of recognition for how hard it's been to build organizations and to do this work and then along comes us who say, "There's more work for you to do and some of it might involve you stepping back."

0:44:26 TL: Some of it might involve you having to actually give up some of the decision-making power, some of the leadership position and to have some really tough conversations with yourselves about, despite how hard it was and how hard you worked and how much you gave up to do this work, it still may be true and often is true that you still had more privileges and advantages than the indigenous people and the black women who are also knowledgeable and very much needed in this work. The last thing I wanna say about it is a harsh truth but I think one that needs to be said. I'm learning so much about the way in which we, as women, have held up patriarchy. Have been part of keeping it upright and we have these conversations sometimes about the women who betray us because they're willing to support patriarchy and vote accordingly. Well, that plays out around race as well and I think we, as much as all women have been furious about questions in courts about "Well, what was she wearing when she got raped?" Questions like that, that so signify sexism and have been furious at the thought that some women were thought to be asking for it or responsible or less deserving of respect and protection, that actually comes into play among progressive, dedicated advocates of sexual violence.

0:46:15 TL: There's this subtle shift that if white women deserve to be protected but it's not so clear that indigenous and black women deserve the same level of protection and I'm thinking here of the Amy Cooper situation. The woman who called the cops on a black man who is bird watching. Sorry about that, she's Canadian but anyway so she calls the police and there's a very ugly history in the United States and in Canada about how white women are somehow more at risk from black men and indigenous men and need to be protected and that somehow the white woman is more valuable than the indigenous or the black woman. There's not the same outrage. So I realize this is very risky to put on the table but we do need to have some conversations about how we've internalized, in our movement, we're at risk of having internalized some of that hierarchy of who's most deserving of protections and how we determine that. I'll leave it there.

0:47:42 JS: Risky conversations are what we need to be having right now in order for us to move forward and so I appreciate you taking that risk. I think everything you've said is absolutely true. And you already talked about this a little bit but I think it's so important that I wanna kinda circle back to it. The anti-sexual violence movement is often and rightly criticized for being exclusionary of marginalized populations, especially people of color and people who aren't cisgender female and so leadership positions have historically been held by white women and the services provided have mostly focused on white women, as we just talked about so can you describe some more of the particular challenges or ways that racism shows up in organizations that are led by white women? 

0:48:34 TL: I think I began to answer that a little bit. And so I'll say a little bit more before I hand over to Barb. We're in this time of COVID and I know that different states are handling it differently but one of the things that has become accepted is the recognition that people of color have been most affected by COVID-19. Indigenous peoples, Native Americans, I should say and people of color have been most affected and what all the data is showing is that distress calls to abuse hotlines are soaring. Shelters can't keep up with the demand and so if you look at the connection between the people most affected by COVID and most at risk of contracting COVID are also the same people who are now falling through the cracks because they can't get access to the services of safety and shelter and supports. We're also looking at policing and the way in which it's become very clear that policing has actually put indigenous women and women of color at risk even when they're calling for help, that it actually exacerbates the abuse.

0:50:11 TL: So if that's happening at the social level, how important is it to have leaders in our organizations who have that analysis as part of their leadership? It's so important and I don't wanna over-simplify this and say that it's not possible for white women in leadership positions to have that analysis and clearly, it is and this is why I work so closely with Barb is 'cause we have a shared analysis of what are the root causes that are putting people at risk of sexual violence and how does that need to be taken into account with prevention. But what I'm saying is that, that knowledge and skill and analysis has existed also in indigenous women and in women of color and it has been overlooked because unfortunately, in most of our organizations, I think we've replicated the very organizations and systems that we have been fighting against so when you look at what does it take to be an executive director? What kind of resumes are you looking at? We set up these, I would say arbitrary expectations that reflect the power over of many mainstream organizations.

0:51:44 TL: We also have, not had some frank conversations about how promotions and access to jobs are still shaped by friendships and networks among us as women and networks of women. I know that as we were preparing for this call, we looked at the Washington Coalition of Sexual Assault Program and a letter that went out from the co-directors of that program, which was so powerful and thank you for sharing that with us and I'm sure your listeners would like to see it as well. That letter is such an explicit and concrete example of what kind of leadership we need in PCAR and other organizations that want to advance prevention of sexual violence work because what those two women are doing is saying, "If we are to live up to what we say we stand for, the principles at the heart of the work that we do, then we need to name it in it's micro forms as well as in it's macro forms." So they say to their members, "Please don't, when you're communicating with us, only send a message to the white Executive Director and leave out the black Executive Director."

0:53:20 TL: What is that about? What is our assumption about who is the real leader and who is the person that was put in place because of some kind of equality program and in brackets; someone who's less qualified? So our organizations are not free from the very things that we critique mainstream organizations for. We, I think, continue to assume that what legitimate, objective, rational leadership looks like is a white body and that women in other bodies will be less objective, more emotional, more connected to their communities. One of the case studies we have in the book talks about who deserves the job and we wrote it because we wanted to peel back some of the assumptions that exist and remain unspoken, that white women can serve everybody, have the knowledge and the skills and the competencies to do all roles but if you hire a black woman, it's probably because the black woman has a particular set of experiences that are good for this little piece of the job but not the whole thing. Probably gonna be your community outreach or somebody person. And if you hire an indigenous person or someone who has a particular language expertise, it's to work with that community and we wanted to actually say, "How do we make decisions about the competencies needed to do solid prevention and public policy change work?"

0:55:10 TL: What I'm learning from women of color and indigenous women in your area of the United States is some of the most brilliant, forward-thinking wisdom that could actually achieve what most of your organizations want to achieve, that it's coming from young women of color and indigenous women so why deny them the positions and the opportunities that they so deserve? 

0:55:44 JS: Barb, do you have anything to add to that? 

0:55:47 BT: Wow! What moved me about what Tina said was that she answered your question but then answered another question, which is what could you do? I wonder if it would be helpful just for a moment because the question was about some of the ways that racism shows up in white women-led organizations. I think there's a particular dynamic with us white women, feminists, who've fought the good fight against the patriarchy, see ourselves as the fighters against and the ones who have suffered, to now look at ourselves as perpetrators of the injustices and harm that we have fought against ourselves and we've seen it in men but now we have to look at those same feelings of superiority, of importance in ourselves and the harm that it does. It takes some real work to walk and chew gum. To say yes, we fight against sexism and yes, we participate in the oppression of other people if we do not, every day, look at this interaction in this microcosm of what am I being silent about, what am I participating in that is harming somebody else? 

0:57:42 BT: So I think, I just wanted to name that particular dynamic that I think is always at play and that is very much associated with how we see ourselves in the world as white women, fighter, warrior, blah blahs and the white warrior, feminist, blah blah also is capable of doing harm, and so, that's harder to look at and it affects the way we think about ourselves, the way we think about our roles in the world, the investment that we have in our own image of ourselves. So I just wanted to add that piece that I think makes it complicated this work with white women in organizations.

0:58:35 TL: I so appreciate hearing you be clear and eloquent about that Barb. And you and I have had many conversations, and we've actually talked about how when you model that, it makes it easier for white women to actually join with you in looking at that aspect of themselves. I know that's really hard work. I have heterosexual privilege. I don't have white privilege, but I do have heterosexual privilege. And I know how I squirm when it shows itself. It is really hard to sit there and take responsibility for something I've done unconsciously, but who cares that it was unconscious? The fact is that I did it. So I hope that your listeners hear that this isn't coming from a holier than thou, this is not me or us saying, "We don't do this, or that we're really good at it." I love the fact that at PCAR, you are doing work around cultural humility, and that you chose the word humility, because I know there is nothing more humbling than me coming face-to-face with my heterosexual privilege and the other forms of privilege that I carry.

1:00:02 TL: The reason that we wrote the book with a focus on racism is because we found that it is the area of oppression that evokes some of the strongest emotion, and that gets pushed off the table as quickly as possible, and we wanted to find ways to keep it on the table. I know that you recognized it because you had a black president, people have been talking about the post-racism era, and it's clear from everything that's happened in the States in the last month or so that that is an illusion, that that is so not true. So the last thing I wanted to say about how racism shows up in organizations is sometimes, a leadership who think that we have done it already, that good intentions and a desire to have done something is enough. It's also a tendency to ask for tools to talk about how it's happening externally, but a real resistance is to looking at internally, so I find many women's organizations who are quite happy to create tools and send them out to others to use or to publish them, but don't actually apply them to their own work. So that's one of the ways that racism shows up. I think it also shows up, to be quite blunt, in the differential treatment of women of color and indigenous women who are employees of an organization.

1:01:45 TL: So, we're long past the point where there would be any overt name-calling or explicit ways, but back to the Dancing on Live Embers, there are constant ways in which there is a messaging, that indigenous and women of color don't quite make the grade, aren't quite up for it. And there's no way that that conversation gets explicit so that we could say, "So what are the criteria you're using? How do you know? What are the measures?" And it's so subtle, and because it's never spoken, it's as though it isn't happening, but you and I know those moments when your stomach is in a knot and you hear something and everybody in the room goes, "Oh." And nobody feels they can speak up because their jobs are at risk. So those are the moments also where racism is happening and it can look to an outside person like everything is fine. [chuckle] There's a meeting that's carrying on and the agenda is getting taken care of, but I wanna say that it's in those silences that are allowed to happen. It's in the decision about how these discussions are either carried forward or people are punished for having them, that we can tell whether or not the organization is doing its job.

1:03:22 BT: Tina said we could talk about this all day and so here we are, talking about it all day. I wanted to mention the work of a Montreal organization called The Center for Community Organizations, and it's prepared a really helpful document that you might wanna check out called White Supremacy Culture in Organizations. And they specialize in community organizations, that's with whom they work. But they've got a particular little part of that on how white supremacy culture shows up in white women-led organizations. And these six things that they identified came from some white women starting to identify their own white supremacy and what they were doing in their own organization. And one of them is confusing informality with equity. Now, I just wanna say, "What does that mean?" Well, an example is when a white director says to somebody who's reporting to her, "Oh, I'd just like you to do this," this happened to my friend the other day, "I'd just like you to prepare some questions for an anti-black forum that we're holding," and so my friend does that.

1:05:04 BT: The night before the forum, the woman looks at the questions and said, "Well, we need answers written to these questions." "Well, how do we answer those questions when the organization hasn't decided actually, and I can't speak for the organization?" "Well just make up something, we need something." "But you never asked us to do this." "Well, oh yes, I did." Well, because it wasn't in writing, because it was an informal chat, the expectations could shift, and then my friend was punished for the unclear expectations and for not fulfilling the unclear expectations in the first place and for having that responsibility downloaded onto her. So, that's one example of the way in which something that says, "Confusing informality with equity actually plays out in the interactions between white women and racialized women in an organization."

1:06:12 BT: Another one that I wanna mention of the six is the disavowal of power. Now by that, I mean... And Tina may have something to say about this too, but there's a sense that power is bad, we fought against unequal power all our lives for something that's equal, and so we don't actually look at the power that we're wielding, and therefore we're wielding it unconsciously, and therefore we're doing harm and we're not taking any responsibility for it. So, those are just two of the things that are mentioned in what I find to be a really helpful document. It certainly had me reflecting on my own practices, which is an ongoing piece of work.

1:07:03 JS: Thanks so much for sharing that article. We'll make sure to link to it in the description and the show notes so that people can take a look, and I know I'm excited to dive into that deeper. So our last question that we had scheduled to talk about was about hiring practices. And so often, one of the first steps an organization takes to address racism and inequity is to adapt hiring practices to be more inclusive and reflective of the communities they serve. But what are some of the common challenges that come up and what do you think organizations can do to meaningfully improve hiring and retention practices? 

1:07:50 BT: So maybe I'll start, and we'll do back and forth on this. So I'll just start with... When black, indigenous, and people of color, I don't know whether you use this term BIPOC, B-I-P-O-C. Yeah, okay. Coming into organizations, they're coming into what are still white spaces. Where nothing else has changed about how things work, except that their bodies are now there. So, the new person might be asked by someone who feels entitled to do so, "What are you doing here in this office?" When the person is just reporting to work in their office. Or they might be asked... Or they might be approached as a secretary when they've been hired as the manager. Or they might be asked whether their hair is real or where they really come from or what's the accent that somebody is sensing, or whether they were an employment equity hire.

1:09:01 BT: So, these are everyday slights and microaggressions that put people on the alert and on guard against the almost certainty of having that kind of encounter again and again and again in a day. And the need to be constantly on guard against this kind of microaggression is called, well, I'm just learning, emotional tax. And in fact, there is a new document out on this and maybe we can talk about this later, but just to say that people who are highly on guard, who have to be highly on guard against expected biases and microaggressions are also more likely to wanna leave an organization, because they're also starting to experience sleep problems and other kinds of health difficulties. So I'll just start with that.

1:10:07 TL: I'm so struck by this question 'cause it gets asked a lot, and very often with the similar language of how do we adapt hiring and promotion, how do we change, how do we become more inclusive? And the language still suggests that there are these really solid, objectively-based, effective hiring practices that remain un-critiqued. But that because we need to bring them in, the people that aren't here yet, we somehow have to do something different. And so, there's this conversation about, "What should we do differently to make it... " This remains unspoken, but it's almost like, what follows it, "To make it easier for indigenous or black or brown women to qualify?" And read the subtext of that is, "How do we have to lower our standards or lower the requirements so that the women who have traditionally been excluded can actually meet the standards to get in?" So I know that was not your intent at all, but I just want to say that that has often been the way that the conversation has unfolded, either explicitly or implicitly.

1:11:43 TL: I don't know about you, but I don't think that we've made significant progress around sexual violence and ending sexual violence. Here in Canada, we have had a significant report about missing and murdered indigenous women placed in the hand... Into the hands of our Prime Minister, and we have not seen any change, and it is one of several reports. In the United States, you have had several reports about anti-black racism and the impacts of it. Very little has changed. What seems to have remained constant over the 20, 30, 40 years that our organizations have existed, is that we tend to use the same hiring criteria, and I would wanna say, "Hey, if it hasn't been working... [chuckle] I'm not saying that the women in those positions who got hired using that criteria have not been excellent, have not done their utmost, 'cause of course, to actually make the systemic changes that we need to make is an uphill battle that's gonna continue probably beyond our lifetimes.

1:13:03 TL: On the other hand, I do wanna say that as much as we can name all the obstacles external to us, federal funding, etcetera, etcetera. It's also true that we have refused in our field of those working on preventing sexual violence. Why are we unwilling to look at the ways in which we do things, the way we've always done them, and they are clearly not adequate to the task. So, rather than saying, "How do we need to change them so that they can be more inclusive," I would like to say, "How do we need to change them so that we can actually be more relevant to the root causes of sexual violence?" That's a very different conversation, and if we're saying that indigenous women and women of color are most at risk, who experience it the most, wouldn't it make sense that our hiring practices and our promotional practices would reflect that, that we would actually ask for that kind of knowledge and expertise and recognize it, so we're not bringing in indigenous and women of color as a favor to them, we're actually bringing them in because it's knowledge that we need and that we have been excluding for reasons that actually perpetuate sexual violence. That would be how I think we need to change how we understand and think about hiring.

1:14:46 TL: The last thing I wanna say is that, especially in leadership positions, we place so much reliance on whether the leaders will be seen to be legitimate to boards of directors, to federal funders, and we imagine who is legitimate, someone who can handle finances and could be trusted to take taxpayers' money in the form of a federal grant and make sure that it's used properly. Well, those assumptions are filled with stereotypes and assumptions that are shaped by white privilege. So again, I realize I could go on and on, I'm going to pass it back to you.

1:15:41 TL: So those are really helpful, Barb, and I wanna push the envelope a little further. When you invited us into this podcast, Tatiana, Jackie, and Karen, what I heard you say was that you want... You're looking for ways to move the conversation further along, and I like those ideas that Barb shared, and I still feel like they don't go quite far enough, because they don't challenge who's at the center. There's still an assumption that white people are at the center, and here's how they can reach out from the center to bring people of color and indigenous people in, and I'm saying, "Uh-huh, it's time to actually change the center." And so, what does that mean for work to prevent sexual violence? I think it's important for us to look back at the history of the women's movement in the United States. The women's movement, the way the history is told was... Is that white women fought for women's rights, including the right to vote.

1:16:56 TL: And the history that's being recovered and reclaimed and told now is how many of the white women who took those leadership positions, learned from indigenous and black women who were already enjoying those rights in their communities, who were already being treated with and insisting on a kind of equality in indigenous communities and in black communities that white women were not experiencing. I realize this is controversial, but there's lots of legit history that you can draw on. I mean, Sojourner Truth, Ain't I a Woman, actually captures some of that history. It's so important, if we're going to live up to what we all are seeing as a better way forward, that white women actually talk about what they have learned about prevention work from indigenous and black and brown women.

1:18:13 TL: What have white women learned about how to do this work from indigenous and black and brown women? Because there has been huge learning that has happened about how to do this, but for many systemic reasons, while indigenous and black and brown women have provided that knowledge, they haven't benefited from being able to work in those organizations. Just think about it for a minute, right? So in most organizations in Canada and the States the leadership positions, executive directors or supervisors or managers, 80% or higher are white women. Could you imagine what would happen if we had 80% of men in positions working to address sexism? We can't even imagine it because it simply would not be tolerated or permitted. Why? Because we would say that women who experience the form of oppression need to be the ones in decision-making power with the leadership to transform and undo the root causes. And men can be supporters and can offer perspective and be part of the movement, but they ought not, and must not be in leadership positions.

1:19:52 TL: If we are recognizing that sexual violence is perpetuated by racism and sexism and heterosexism combining, and that there's a disproportionate impact on indigenous and black women. How can we say it's okay for so few to be in leadership positions? So those are really helpful, Barb. And I wanna push the envelope a little further. When you invited us into this podcast, Tatiana, Jackie and Karen, what I heard you say was that you want... You're looking for ways to move the conversation further along. And I like those ideas that Barb shared, and I still feel like they don't go quite far enough because they don't challenge who's at the center. There's still an assumption that white people are at the center, and here's how they can reach out from the center to bring people of color and indigenous people in. And I'm saying, "Uh-uh, it's time to actually change the center." And so what does that mean for work to prevent sexual violence? I think it's important for us to look back at the history of the women's movement in the United States.

1:21:17 TL: The Women's movement, the way the history is told, was is that white women fought for women's rights, including the right to vote, and the history that's being recovered, and reclaimed, and told now is how many of the white women who took those leadership positions learned from indigenous and black women who were already enjoying those rights in their communities, who were already being treated with and insisting on a kind of equality in indigenous communities and in black communities that white women were not experiencing. I realize this is controversial, but there's lots of legit history that you can draw on. I mean, Sojourner Truth, Ain't I a Woman, actually captures some of that history. It's so important. If we're going to live up to what we all are seeing as a better way forward that white women actually talk about what they have learned about prevention work from indigenous and black and brown women? What have white women learned about how to do this work from indigenous and black and brown women? Because there has been huge learning that has happened about how to do this, but for many systemic reasons, while indigenous and black and brown women have provided that knowledge, they haven't benefited from being able to work in those organizations.

1:23:21 TL: Just think about it for a minute, right? So in most organizations in Canada and the States the leadership positions, executive directors or supervisors or managers, 80% or higher are white women. Could you imagine what would happen if we had 80% of men in positions working to address sexism? We can't even imagine it because it simply would not be tolerated or permitted. Why? Because we would say that women who experience the form of oppression need to be the ones in decision making power with the leadership to transform and undo the root causes. And men can be supporters and can offer a perspective and be part of the movement, but they ought not and must not be in leadership positions. If we are recognizing that sexual violence is perpetuated by racism and sexism and heterosexism combining and that there's a disproportionate impact on indigenous and black women. How can we say it's okay for so few to be in leadership positions? 

1:24:44 JS: You've given us so much to unpack here and I know I'll probably have to go back and listen to this 10 times to get all of the points 'cause there's just so much good stuff that you've both brought up today. Karen and Tatiana, I just wanted to give you an opportunity if there's anything you wanted to reflect on or share before we wrap it up.

1:25:05 KG: So first, I just wanna thank Barb and Tina, not only for everything you've shared with us while we've been recording the podcast, but the whole experience of working together and planning for the podcasts and things like that. Because not only have I learned so much from reading Dancing on Live Embers, and then all of our fruitful conversations that we've had in planning for today, but... I can't tell you how many moments during the recording that I had goosebumps on my arms and I wrote things down that I need to think more about and I need to read and learn about. And I'm just so grateful to you for your transparency and openness because I really think that at least for me, you've inspired me to integrate more of that into my practice and certainly given me a lot to reflect upon. And certainly just even as you were talking and identifying many mistakes that I've made in the past, that I can continue to learn from so that I don't continue to perpetuate racism in the work that I'm doing. So thank you.

1:26:13 TP: Just to piggyback off of that, I really appreciate just all of the courageous and... I don't think there's even a word to capture all of the rich information, guidance... Just the laid out walking path that you've both have been able to provide to the three of us, but also to the listeners of this podcast. So that we can... In our movement to end sexual harassment, abuse and assault for all victims and survivors. It just means so much and we're so gracious and thankful for that. And I think just the recentering of black and indigenous people of color is monumentous in this moment and time that we're in. And I'm full of thanks and gratitude, and I just really... And all of the things that you've said, I think what really holds true is that if you... Well, something that Jackie says often is that, if you care about someone, and then our work, if you really care about ending sexual violence, that it's important to reflect on how you cause harm, and also move towards fixing the harm that you've caused so you don't keep perpetuating them, and perpetrating that violence. And so, I really appreciate and thank you both for giving us all of the wisdom and knowledge today.

1:28:05 JS: I'd like to echo that and say thank you to Tina, Barb, Tatiana and Karen for joining us today to talk about Dancing on Live Embers, and how we can all do better, because we can, and there's so much to learn by reading their book, Dancing on Live Embers. And if you want to learn more about Tina and the book, you can check that out at tinalopes, and Lopes is with an S, dot-com. And we'll also link in the show notes to some other books written by Barb for you to learn more about her and the work that she has done. And so just again, thank you so much to everyone who's listened to this episode of PA Centered, and thank you again to all of our guests for having this conversation.